Lotripper ([info]msilverstar) wrote,
@ 2008-05-24 17:12:00
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Current mood: intrigued
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random language thoughts
[info]acari had a fab post on German words in English. I took a history of the English language course in college and never quite recovered ;-)

English is particularly weird, IIRC, being a melange of Middle Low German and early Norman French with a lot of weirdness, including Latin from scholars since about 1400. Hybrid vigor, when it works, just a mess sometimes. Many of the "rules" of our language are actually rules of Latin applied to English in the 18th and 19th centuries by teachers who loved -- or at least admired -- Latin.

As for gestalt and verklempt, they have been absorbed because, in their English versions, they fill a void in the vocabulary. I think it's good for us to be open to other languages, we as a culture are pretty xenophobic otherwise.

... [[info]acari says she thinks verklempt is from Yiddish]...

Yes, verklempt is Yiddish, meaning "choked up with emotion". It's not very common outside of those with Ashkenazi Jewish heritage.

There are a few Yiddish words that have wider usage: I think lots of people understand "schtick" as meaning the special thing someone does, their basic comedy routine: Dom's schtick was doing impressions of other actors. Also "chutzpah" -- a cross between confidence and hubris. "Kibitz" meaning to offer advice from the side, like a back-seat driver. "Tchotchkies" or "chochkeys" are knick-knacks, little things one puts on shelves, often of the cheap and silly kind distributed by vendors at a big convention.

The most widely used Yiddish-derived word in fandom is "maven", meaning someone who's an expert in a field, with the connotation of also being trustworthy and helpful. William Safaire popularized it, calling himself a language maven in the 60s.


ETA: the above is about Yiddish-in-American-English, not at all about UK or Commonwealth English. Yiddish being pretty much a mix of German and Hebrew, with some Russian and Polish thrown in, spoken by Ashkenazi Jews who lived in The Pale, an area pretty much overlayed by and variously ruled by Germany, Russia, Poland and Lithuania. My great-grandparents were native Yiddish speakers but I don't know much at all, which makes me kinds sad.



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[info]asknosecrets
2008-05-24 09:28 pm UTC (link)
This is such an American post. ;) I'm wondering if things like chutzpah actually show up in English-English, and I have just never heard them, or if they're an American-English thing. It's interesting, the language barrier, and the whole "Who stole what from who when", usually influenced by what point whatever group ended up in whatever place.

(I fail at German. I can get into a conversation, and read, but can't write. My family never bothered to teach me, even though my grandmother used to speak it on the phone to hide the fact she was having an affair, and used to get drunk and yell at customers in a hodge-podge of German and Russian.)

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-24 09:39 pm UTC (link)
It is very American, and I have ETAed to that point. I think a lot of things end up being random chance, and whatever got into the popular culture. Jewish writers and filmmakers definitely added their flavor to language!

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[info]fajrdrako
2008-05-25 12:29 am UTC (link)
Does this mean that the British and Australians don't use 'maven'? I would recognize and understand the word, but it's not one I would use; I can't tell whether Canadians in general would use it or not. I would have thought so, but can't think of instances.

Who uses what words constantly fascinates and confuses me.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 05:15 am UTC (link)
Maybe Canadians with an exposure to Yiddish and/or William Safire?

Years and years ago, there was an SCA journal article about authenticity mavens vs. fun mavens -- I think that's where I truly absorbed the term. So far from Yiddish...

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[info]fajrdrako
2008-05-25 02:49 pm UTC (link)
Canadians with an exposure to Yiddish and/or William Safire?

I myself have no exposure at all to Yiddish - it's a mysterious American dialect. But the word is, I guess, in common enough use in American English - I had no idea it was Yiddish in origin.

I don't hear the word often. I don't know if I usually hear it from Americans or on American TV - must pay attention and see if I hear Canadians saying it.

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[info]txvoodoo
2008-05-25 03:47 am UTC (link)
Not to mention, NYC had Yiddish newspapers and theater.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 05:15 am UTC (link)
I think Chicago and LA had those too, but not any more. New York seems to be continuing.

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[info]shirasade
2008-05-24 09:33 pm UTC (link)
That's one of the reasons, I think, why I like English so much, the way it's such a mishmash and very open to "steal" words from other languages.

Edit: And heh, mishmash - pretty sure that's another steal from German. :)

Edited at 2008-05-24 09:35 pm UTC

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-24 09:42 pm UTC (link)
It is fun, you never know where things come from. "Boondocks" is from a Phillipino mountain name, "pygamas" from Hindu, "tattoo" from the South Pacific, and "algebra" from Arabic. <3

But according to the Onlyine Etymology Dictionary, mishmash is a Middle English word, not particularly German.

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[info]shirasade
2008-05-24 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Ah, that's a parallel development then, as "Mischmasch" is definitely a German word.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-24 11:35 pm UTC (link)
Too good a word to ignore :-)

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[info]asknosecrets
2008-05-24 09:40 pm UTC (link)
"My great-grandparents were native Yiddish speakers but I don't know much at all, which makes me kinds sad."

I wonder how many other people feel that way? The topic has come up with a lot of British-Asian kids, first generation to be born here, who don't speak their parents language at all. My father I'm pretty sure spoke no real Irish, so I was never taught any, and my grandmother didn't pass much on to me language-wise, beyond getting me up to high school level by the time we started in middle school. Which isn't really much.

(P.S. I wasn't being snarky about this being American-English, I just thought it was funny/relevant given the topic)

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-24 09:45 pm UTC (link)
It's a classic US immigrant assimilation story, except that my mom learned quite a bit of Yiddish because she likes knowing about her heritage.

I'm glad you mentioned it about American English thing, it is interesting to me and adds context. I'd rather explain too much than assume too much.

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[info]asknosecrets
2008-05-24 09:49 pm UTC (link)
We get it a lot here in generation splits of kids refusing to learn their parents' language, as a rebellion in a way. I wasn't given the chance, because my mother liked to pretend that the family was whitebread English through and through (which made things kind of interesting when I was a kid and had a lot of older relatives still living.)

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[info]matildabj
2008-05-24 09:54 pm UTC (link)
I've got a book I should send you, called 'The Stories of English'. Stories plural, because English is no longer one single language. Nor has it ever been, come to think of it. Also Bill Bryon's book Mother Tongue is rather excellent on this subject (talks about things like why British English still uses begotten and forgotten, but not gotten. I love all that).

However none of that has anything to do with Yiddish. Sorry.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-24 09:59 pm UTC (link)
Oh that sounds like a neat book! I've got a copy of of Mother Tongue, of course, along with my textbook from the course. I love etymology.

American English uses gotten in some interesting ways. The first that come to mind are "gotten off", "gotten drunk", and "gotten ready". I think they might be perfect subjunctive but my Latin grammar is terribly rusty.

Oh I so don't want to go grocery shopping.

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[info]kaydeefalls
2008-05-24 10:36 pm UTC (link)
I also use mensch, kvetch, kvell, schmuck, and goy/goyim regularly, along with a handful of other Yiddish words that have been fully adopted into American English (klutz, schmooze). Interestingly, I've found that in Chicago, I've had to explain certain Yiddish words/phrases that I consider common usage (like mensch and kvell); growing up in NYC, there was a LOT more Yiddish integrated into general use. Possibly because of the high concentration of Jews in NY?

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-24 11:42 pm UTC (link)
New York and bits of LA seem to be the big Yiddish centers, I grew up in LA with most of those words (except kvell, which was later). I was surprised to see so very many people in Orthodox outfits this last visit to NY, maybe that will keep the language going for a while longer.

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[info]dommaven
2008-05-24 11:08 pm UTC (link)
This post is a shoutout to me, admit it. *G*

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 03:53 am UTC (link)
hahahahhahaha! Yes of course!

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[info]juke_box_dive
2008-05-25 01:25 am UTC (link)
I love reading about etymology. Also, never too late to learn. My mom started Hebrew lessons at 60.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 04:02 am UTC (link)
Do you read Language Log? It and the Online [English] Etymology Dictionary are so fun of win!

As for languages, I keep wanting to learn Spanish, because there's a whole chunk of local culture closed to me without it.

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[info]thelastgoodname
2008-05-25 03:40 am UTC (link)
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language" -- or in this case, castigating it -- "is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 04:08 am UTC (link)
True! French has L'Academie, which prescribes allowable words, whereas we have no central authority and it's basically random what becomes standard.

And I looked up your quote, which is from Booker T. Washington, I had no idea he was that salty a guy :-)

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[info]thelastgoodname
2008-05-25 04:24 am UTC (link)
Really? I had always attributed it to some random guy on the Internet. According to wikipedia, said random guy now has a name.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 05:10 am UTC (link)
Wahhh! I wanted it to be Booker T.

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[info]acari
2008-05-25 04:56 pm UTC (link)
That's the quote I referenced in my comment, the one on the icon!

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 09:38 pm UTC (link)
Yes, it's fabulous!

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[info]txvoodoo
2008-05-25 03:46 am UTC (link)
Growing up, 2 of my friends grandmothers spoke Yiddish. They'd often throw words in here and there. One day, one of them was at my house during a visit from my (Sicilian) grandmother, and used some Yiddish. Imagine my surprise when my grandmother responded in Yiddish! Turns out she'd learned to speak it while working in a factory with Jewish girls in the early part of 20th century :D

I picked up a lot of it, too. It's such a beautifully RICH language.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 04:10 am UTC (link)
I'm kvelling at the very thought :-)

Oh! Also from Yiddish: "klutz"! And "glitch"! and "nosh!" Gosh this is fun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Yiddish_origin

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[info]txvoodoo
2008-05-25 04:21 am UTC (link)
hehe "macher" - My friend's Bubbe would use that, saying "Who does that macher think he is?"

She used "nu" all the time. And I picked up pisher, and schlub, and schmutz, and tsuris. Heh - that one I'd mix with agita. Sicilian and Yiddish are great for words indicating anger, grief, disdain, emotions :D

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 05:11 am UTC (link)
"Nu" is good. But I want to use "mensch" all the time and I know most people won't get it :-/

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[info]matildabj
2008-05-25 09:34 am UTC (link)
I first heard "nu" in the lyrics of a song from 'Guys and Dolls'. I've still got no idea what it means!

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[info]aecamadi
2008-05-25 09:57 am UTC (link)
Basically it's the same as saying "well" or "so" at the end of a sentence as a prompt to be told more, or in place of saying what's already understood, as shorthand.

"My mother in law is in town for a month."
"Ahh, you told me about that, nu?" as in "Ahh, you told me about that, so... how's it going, are you okay, give me more details"

"My mother in law is in town for a month."
"Oh, how's that going for you?"
"You've met her, nu?" as in "You've met her, so..." you know how it's going. It can remain unsaid.

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[info]matildabj
2008-05-25 06:08 pm UTC (link)
Ah, okay, thank you! That's a really good explanation.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 09:39 pm UTC (link)
Or when someone trails off because their either being mysterious or got distracted in their story. "So, nu?" by itself, means "what next?"

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[info]aecamadi
2008-05-25 09:49 am UTC (link)
That must be an east coast vs. west coast thing, as mensch is here in Pittsburgh in the common language. Of course, we have an "enclave" street that's got five year olds speaking Yiddish more fluently than most assimilated American Jews, much as the enclaves in Brooklyn and New Jersey and upstate New York. It's amazing what happens when a little group of Haredi decide that they like a place. Their ways filter outward. Of course, I'd argue that Haredim speak Yeshivish, not Yiddish, but it's the Yiddish that the larger community connects to and takes on board.

My father in law, born and raised in Europe (Poland and other places) speaks Yiddish, my husband, also Polish-born speaks a great deal, but not as much as FIL and the relatives who are still in Poland. In my FIL's travels he has found that Yiddish speakers and speakers of the German derived "Pennsylvania Dutch" used by the Amish and other old order Plain people can communicate fairly well, which makes some sense.

I, on the other hand, avoid Yiddish, even popular expressions, because as a convert, people look at me funny when I use it, like I'm trying to prove something, or like I'm out of place, a shiksa in the shtetl. Oy, the tsuris.

BTW, I think we can pinpoint when and where verklempt entered the common lexicon - Mike Myers' "Coffee Talk" bits on SNL back in the 90s, which was a character based on and named for his then mother-in-law.

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[info]msilverstar
2008-05-25 09:41 pm UTC (link)
Oy vey, that's not fair, the expressions are so much fun to use. What about your kids, do they speak Yiddish/Yeshivish? Or Hebrew?

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